carta sobre calles a Vistamares - letter to Vistamares

[GDN43]

I agree with Sr Kreuzwirth. We are getting quite a lot for the minimal monthly fee. We should alway keep in mind that our property is located in a forest in central america. considering such the road are in GOOD condition. I own my lot lot for close to 20 yaers and the road conditions has NOT DETERIORATED during this time period. moreover the value of the property has increased considerably.
I believe we should get together wITH the administrator and set priority without the shouthng, insults and threats.
The bottom line is to maintain or enhance the value of our investment in LOS ALTOS DE CERRO AZUL. I am certain everyone agrees on that point.

F. Warren
Guardian 43

[HKreuzwirth]

Marco,
thank you for letting me know the link where I can find the document about "How to run a community".
I do have this document already. I was more interested in something like a "business plan", something like this:

This is only an Example:
3 Road workers, x amount of money
1 Secretary x amount of money
6 Security persons x amount of money
2 Cars, Pick up x amount of money
1 Small Truck x amount of money
12 times maintenance for all cars x amount of money
Computer for office x amount of money
Light, Water, Tell, Internet bill for office x amount of money
Paint, repairs, maintenance of office, gate house, etc.. x amount of money
Tools (Weedeater, etc...) x amount of money
Consumables for Maintenance x amount of money
Material to repair the road x amount of money
Compactor for road work x amount of money
Etc, etc, etc,........

Land owners who are paying x amount of money
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically: incoming money versus costs.
Everyone who has a business or want to start a business will have to do that before he goes for it.
I did this with my business and because there was more incoming then costs I went for it and I am doing fine.

I do not know exactly how much does the operation cost in Cerro Azul but I made a rough calculation and since I know that not everyone is paying there maintenance fee I can not see that this is going to work.
Where do you want to get the money from when there are too high costs?
The only option is, increasing the maintenance fee and somehow I have the feeling that it will have to be quite a lot.
You will earn a lot of points (negative) with the ones who are paying and the ones who are not paying do not care anyway.
You will be in the exact position like Mr. Melo is now.

I really would appreciate if someone could send me the "Cerro Azul Business Plan".
Knowing the Laws and Rights to run a community is one thing.
Knowing how to run a community with numbers is a completely other thing.

With best regards,

Harald Kreuzwirth

[Marco]

Harald -

Yes, I agree, seeing a financial statement would be helpful for us all to understand the benefits provided by the administration.

My link to the document you refer to was in reply to someone else who asked where the new law for residential developments could be found. This new law may provide a legal recourse for collecting unpaid TSM. That could also be a huge benefit.

Marco

[tsimons]

Para el usuario san:
Nosotros los miembros de PACAR agradecemos sus comentarios sinceros y respetuosos. Con personas como Usted podemos llevar a cabo las mejores intenciones para nuestra heterogénea comunidad.
muchas gracias por tomarse el tiempo en presentar una opinión tan alentadora!
Terani

[avechaser]

ENGLISH
With respect, I think that Harald is missing the point. Nobody has said (at least not on this forum) that we want to do maintenance, arrange security, cut the grass and sweep up the leaves or perform most other administrative duties ourselves, or employ people or buy equipment directly to do so. That is best contracted to a specialist service company - in our case one of the Melo companies. I don't think you need to break your back trying to calculate how much it all would cost - let Melo tell us. As property owners, we do have a right to ask for and receive information on where the money goes, and to request that efforts be concentrated on those tasks that are of most concern to us.
Of course, ideally we should be electing property owners to represent us formally through boards of directors of the (already established but not operating) property owners associations and they should be contracting and setting priorities for Melo as the service company. But in the absence of that mechanism, we don't have much choice but to approach Melo in the way we have been doing.
As regards the gentleman who says that the roads are as good as they were 20 years ago - we bought our property in 1990 and had to negotiate no potholes at all to get here. We have to take Paseos Himalaya and Chimborazo - and they are now in 2012 full of potholes. Come take a look!
Finally, please bear in mind that there are around 2000 lots in Los Altos de Cerro Azul. That brings total income and economies of scale that result - or should result - in a relatively low TSM for each property. I know that not everyone pays their TSM, but that figure of 2000 is where you have to start.
ESPAÑOL
Con todo respeto, creo que Harald no ha entedido el punto. Nadie ha dicho (por lo menos en este foro) que nosotros queremos hacer el mantenimiento, organizar la seguridad, cortar la grama, recoger las hojas o llevar a cabo la mayoría de las otras tareas administrativas nosotros mismos, tampoco emplear personal o comprar equipo directamente para hacerlo. Es mejor contratar una empresa de servicios especialista, en este caso una del Grupo Melo. No creo que debe matarse tratando de calcular cuánto costaría todo - vamos a dejar que Melo nos diga. Como propietarios, sí tenemos el derecho de solicitar y recibir información sobre como se gasta el dinero, y solicitar que se dediquen mayores esfuerzos a esas tareas que son prioritarias para nosotros.
Por supuesto, idealmente debemos estar eligiendo propietarios a las juntas directivas de las asociaciones de propietarios (que existen pero no funcionan) para que ellos nos representen formalmente y ellos deben estar contratando y fijando prioridades para Melo como empresa de servicios. Pero en la ausencia de tal mecanismo, no podemos hacer más que acercarnos al Grupo Melo en la forma que la estamos haciendo.
En cuanto al caballero que dice que las calles están tan buenas como hace 20 años - nosotros compramos nuestra propiedad en el año 1990 y no teníamos que esquivar huecos en las calles para llegar aquí. Tenemos que tomar los Paseos Himalaya y Chimborazo - y ahora en el 2012 están llenos de huecos. Venga a ver!
Finalmente, les ruego tener en mente que hay alrededor de 2000 lotes en Los Altos de Cerro Azul. Eso trae ingresos y economías de escala que resulten - o deben resultar - en un cargo de administración relativamente bajo por cada propiedad. Sé que no todo el mundo paga su TSM, pero tiene que toamr en cuenta esa cifra.
Bill Adsett
El Torreón 142

[colmport]

This forum is generating a good neighborhood discussion. Clearly, most people are happy with our lives in Cerro Azul and with the manner in which Mr. Melo maintains the area. Good points are being made about the value of our dollars, or Balboas, being spent. One brother in law owns a very small condo in Miami and he pays $400.00 per month in maintenance fees to maintain a parking lot and to do nominal landscaping (less than a flower box or two).

I own a home in Gore Bay, Ontario, Canada where I pay $2,000.00 per year for unpaved roads that are open 5 months of the year and that are in no better shape than those in Cerro Azul. I must drive my garbage to a Township collection area some 20 miles from my home with Canadian gas prices at $1.30 per liter. I have no security except my neighbors who look out for one another. I have no pool, no Club House and no recreational facilities. Teh only trails are those made by me, my children or my grandchildren. I pay the fees. I do not complain. I have owned the place 41 years so I merely pay the money, knowing my only other option is to sell to someone else who would appreciate the home as I have over the years.

Would I prefer no pot holes. Of course. Would I like well paved roads of 6 inch asphalt laid on a proper road base. In a heart beat. Could the majority of us residing in Cerro Azul afford the per lot pro rata cost to have such luxury. I will bet $100.00 Balboas to a hole in a doughnut that the answer is NO. I suggest again that some of those who do not know the value we get for our investment should ask what it will cost to live in a similar retirement community anywhere else; in the United States, in Canada, in Europe, even elsewhere in Panama. I believe we would find that we have found a goose that lays golden eggs ad that we should not injure our goose,lest we "ccok our own goose". Another suggestion is to pay a civil engineer to come and to provide you with an estimate of the paving cost. I have no doubt that if any interested individual shells out the professional fee, you can find a licensed engineer who can provide such a report. I can only imagine it would be staggering, even at Panamanian rates of labor.

I could ask for an annual report of how my money is spent in Canada. I do not bother. Why, because it matters not a wit and I do not give a hoot. I want to remain a tranquil property owner. When I cease to reamain tranquil; I will sell any item of personal or real property that causes me distess. Can we demand an account in Altos de Cerro Azul? I suppose we can. To what benefit? Mr. Shirley has seen the numbers and I trust his recitation of facts. I am not Thomas. I need not stick my fingers in the nail holes or my hand into the wound in the side.

The issue of collection more lot fees has been raised. As a lawyer, let me give everyone a clue. This can be pursued, at some expense. But to what end? If a group were to pursue delinquent property owners in Court, a judgment can be rendered in favor of the Plaintiffs. Judgments are worthless unles you can collect. The Plaintiff then needs to pursue more investigation and litigatin to locate and to garnish any assets. Another method is to place a judgment lien agains the delinquent property. When the owner then fails topay, the property can be foreclosed upon and sold. All of this is expensive. It is time consuming. It yields more headaches than funds. At the end of the day, the Plaintiff may end up owning the properties that were delinquent. What use is it to the bottom line to expend many thousands of dollars to, after considerable time has passed, to hold title to non income producing property? Such is an exercise in futility. It is tantamount to eating one's head into a wall because it feels good when you stop. Lunacy...

Mark y Yari Ort
61 Altos el Torreon

[HKreuzwirth]

Hi Bill,
English nore Spanish is my mothertonge and I assume that is why maybe my point of view was not really understood.
I did not expect that the maintenance or management is done by the property owners.
However it still comes down to the same amount of money which needs to be spend.

As always, where there are at least 2 people meeting, there are different point of views and different priorities.
To me the road does not have a high priority and to other people it does.
If Melo is spending 4 times more money in making the place looking nice instead of putting this money into the roads does not bother me.
For me the roads and the rest of Cerro Azul is at the moment OK, especially for the price of less then 30 USD.
My point of view, If Cerro Azul stays the way it is Melo can do with my money (3 times, since I have 3 lots) what he wants to do with it.

I really do not care if some part of this money would go into his Chicken farms or if he pays himself a nice dinner or ...
To me it matters how much I pay and what I get for it (maybe I am too much of an egoist).
In my opinion it can not be said too many times.
XXXX I (we) get a LOT for less then 30 USD. XXXX

But Again, this is my point of view ...

[stevenospam]

From: Domingo Batista
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:02 PM
To: admin@altosdecerroazulresidencial.org
Cc: ssevillano
Subject: TSM Los Altos de Cerro Azul

Como empresa responsable de la administración del proyecto Los
Altos de Cerro Azul, tenemos el deber de presentar a todos los
propietarios; como fueron usados los dineros pagados por los
propietarios en concepto de la Taza de Servicio y
Mantenimiento(TSM).
Estamos en la mejor disposición de presentar el informe anual, a
finales del mes de febrero. Todos los gastos incurridos se detallarán
por departamentos incluyendo planilla e insumos, como también los
gastos administrativos.
Les agradezco una vez lo tengan puedan emitir opiniones de
acuerdo a lo presentado. En todo caso tenemos una reunión
pendiente con todos los propietarios la cual deberá ser programada
para el mes de marzo.
En estos momentos no hemos avanzado en él mantenimiento de
calles; producto de que se agotó el Asfalto en todo el país y desde
hace más de tres semanas tenemos una orden pendiente de
despacho por 6,000 galones cuyo costo B/.23,880.00, no ha sido
posible que nos la entreguen(Petróleos Delta, S.A.)
Con el ánimo de mantener a todos los propietarios informados; tan
pronto se reciba el asfalto, se continuará con los mantenimientos de
calles. Igual acabamos de comprar una apisonadora por B/.5,250.00
para que el trabajo quede mucho mejor y dure más.

Saludos;
Domingo Batista

English translation by a member of Grupo PACAR
Re: Los Altos de Cerro Azul TSM (Service and Management Fee)
As the company responsible for the administration of the Altos de Cerro Azul project, we have the duty to tell all the property owners how the monies they paid in Service and Management Fees (TSM) were used.
We are fully prepared to present the annual report at the end of February. All costs incurred will be given by department including payroll and inputs as well as administrative costs
I should be grateful if as soon as you have them you would express opinions on the material we shall present. In any case, we have pending a meeting with all the property owners that should be scheduled for the month of March.
At the moment we have not made progress on road maintenance because there is no asphalt available in the entire country and for the last 3 weeks we have had an order pending for supply of 6000 gallons with a cost of $23,880.00. Petroleos Delta SA has not been able to deliver it.
In the spirit of keeping all the property owners informed, as soon as the asphalt is received we shall continue with road maintenance. Also, we have just purchased a roller for $5,250.00 in order for the work to have a better finish and last longer.
Regards
Domingo Batista

[Jim Good]

This is my first post and am sure will not be the last. We have lived in Los Altos for the last two years and LOVE this place.
I agree with Rob, attacking Melo is not the answer.

Something to poder
The main road from El Lago to Los Altos is being maintained by Melo.....WHY???? This is a public road and should be maintained by MOP.
If there is something to fight for this is an issue that should be corrected and MOP should maintain this section of the road. This road does in fact service Melo but it also services the public and has for many years.
If MOP were to be forced to accept their responsibility this would free up Melo resources that possibly could be used inside on Los Altos.
So if your looking for a fight pick this one, talk it up and see where it goes.

We have IMO have had over the top service from Melo and its employees......Keep up the good work guys and gals!!!

Ely and Jim Good Fortaleza 40

[Marco]

Ely & Jim -

My understanding from the grapevine is that the Lago is the start of the maintenance by Melo because MOP ruled the road is private.

I would like to be proven wrong.