ASOCIACION DE PROPIETARIOS DEL RESIDENCIAL DE MONTAÑA LOS ALTOS DE CERRO AZUL (APREMACA)

Buenas nuevamente, con respecto a la administración del proyecto, esto no es imposible, ni complicado, para eso está la plata ... con organización, se puede, con la dirección de una buena junta directiva... Si Altos de Vistamares cumple su promesa de no administrar más si no le es rentable, antes de hacerlo deben entregar la INFORMACION COMPLETA de lo que han manejado hasta ahora, incluyendo la BASE DE DATOS DE TODOS los propietarios, con dirección y teléfonos, etc., lista detallada de los morosos y las gestiones de cobro que han hecho....(evidencias).

10 dólares puede sonar ridículo, pero para quienes tienen dos o tres lotes se multiplica por dos o tres, mientras que el mantenimiento de las calles, limpieza y areas comunes no se multiplica. Además, las cosas como son, pagamos mantenimiento y en consecuencia, deben rendir informes.

Yo espero jubilarme allí... algún día.

Saludos,

Perdonen que siga, pero tengo una pregunta: cuantos propietarios estamos en este foro?
Si somos pocos... energías gastadas... ojalá seamos muchos. Si somos pocos, deberíamos pedirle inmediatamente a Altos de Vistamares, la base de datos de los vecinos, para que todos estemos informados. Saludos.

una pregunta para quien sea abogado, con respecto a otros posts que dicen que como el alza no fue anunciada en asamblea de propietaria ni votado, entonces los morosos no son legalmente morosos y no se les puede cobrar.

Mi pregunta es: siendo esto así, entonces no le toca al Administrador (Vistamares), correr con los gastos de estos incobrables? porque si legalmente no se les puede cobrar a los morosos (legalmente no mororos), perdón pero es negligencia o ineficiencia del actual administrador. Entonces, le tocaría a Vistamares pagar la suma en concepto de morosidad?

Saludos,

Itzelfong, gracias para su participación. Si, es la area correcta.

Mi pregunta es, si la administración actual tiene un sofisticado método contable, y pueden rendir la información en cualquier momento, porqué no lo han hecho. Esta historia tiene ya varios años... y nada se ha conseguido a la fecha. Tasa de aumento sin el debido procedimiento legal - y las cuentas incobrables. Dos problemas serios, muy serios y que sólo requiere de voluntad para hacerlo. Poner a una secretaria a citar para la asamblea general, explicar o enviar los informes mensualmente, y buscar el quorum para aprobar el aumento, explicando las razones. Y poner a esa misma secretaria a contactar los incobrables morosos. Pero NO LO HAN HECHO desde HACE AÑOS. La pregunta es, PORQUE? Ellos tienen personal, tienen todos los correos, yo nunca he recibido una citación de asamblea para informarme nada de alza de mantenimiento.

y es que Vistamares o algunos dueños de las organizaciones creadas, pretenden que seamos nosotros los propietarios los que tengamos que perseguir los morosos? Me niego. Ese trabajo es de VISTAMARES, ellos deben resolverlo, se queden con la administración o renuncien, lo que sea, el tema de los incobrables es: VISTAMARES DEBE resolver el tema de los morosos, asumirlo ya que ellos no procedieron como debieron para cobrarlo, por la razón que fuere. A mi no me causa ninguna gracia pagar puntualmente mis manteninientos y que otros no lo hagan y aquí no pasa nada.

Estamos de acuerdo con que el costo de la vida ha aumentado, es correcto. Que ya ellos tienen toda una logística, equipo e infraestructura, perfecto. Que dan buen servicio en ocasiones puntuales, me alegra. Que el personal es atento y servicial, perfecto. Pero deben presentar informes y hacer las cosas como debe ser para aprobar aumentos y rescatar o asumir ellos los incobrables. Y la divulgación es muy sencilla - envíen los informes vía email a todos los propietarios, debidamente auditados al final del año fiscal. Que los mandan por email, las convocatorias, todo... o sea, PORQUE NO LO HACEN, sabiendo que hay malestar entre los propietarios del proyecto y teniendo toda la información de los clientes??? Porqué no lo hacen???

Saludos a todos.

I agree with my nieghbor who recommends publicly humiliating the dead beats who increase our costs. I would go further to state that whomever administers our project needs to pursue redress in court. The delinquent propery owners can be sued. A judgment lien can be placed against ther properties and the properties can be sold to satisfy the debt. I for one would buy the delinquent properties surrounding me and I WILL pay my dues (TSM) as requested. It is ludicrous to suggest that the administrator of the project shold foist this task onto the defunct property owners' associations. My neighborhood is one of the 9 without such a dysfunctional association and I do not want one formed to further aggravate me.

Regarding Mrs. Simons' posting. I also agree with her to a large extent. Although I have no answers to her questions, which are largely rhetorical in nature, I suggest the following food for thought:

The current method of administering the entire project was formulated when Melo was the majority owner. The 7 associations formed for the 9 neighborhoods was an interesting concept, probably (I am an American lawyer not a Panamanian lawyer) based on Panamanian condominium laws. Such laws make some sense in a shared structure such as a high rise apartment building where you have a single parking garage, a single point of ingress and egress; central elevator banks, etc. Such brilliant ideans fail miserably when applied to residential neighborhoods such as ours in Cerro Azul. These associates are dysfunctional, in most instances (and Americans have such idiocy also...) in single neighborhoods. This concept of ancient Athenian democracy cannot work in a project such as ours where there ar 9 "neighborhoods" with 7 non functioning associations.

Think momentarily. Will each association build a security checkpoint at the entrance to its territory? Where will these be placed and how will they be manned? At whose expense? What propery owners will be made to give up part of their lots to provide the security space? Will we then have 9 security check points? Nine maintenance crews? Nine garbage collection points? Nine sets of grounds maintenace personnel? And the list goes on ad nauseum.

If the answer is no to any of these questions,; does anyone in his or her right mond honestly believe that 7 or 9 different groups will meet and agree on ANYTHING? We do not live in ancient Athens where all adult males can be called to the forum to debate and to vote on a daily basis. I attended the 21 April meeting and not a damned thing was accomplished except to elevate my blood pressure and to make my seat sore.

I too would like a better accounting from our current administration. Their account was fairly good but the largest item of expense was not itemized. Break it down. I do not believe that they are stealing our money but a breakdown would be nice.

With that said, has anyone undertaken the chore of conducting a study to discern what it will cost us if we shed our current administration and contract out for a new administrator? Who would be in charge of drafting the statement of work? Of soliciting the bids? Of evaluating the bids? Of awarding the contract? Of administering the contract? Of more efficiently collecting all the TSM due and suing those who refuse to pay? If we cannot get all 9 associations up and running and if not a single association is functional, how will this complicated business task be accomplished? I dare to say that most of us live in Cerro Azul because we want to put the drugery of our pre-retirement, or our hectic business, lives in our rear view mirrors! I was a contract attorney and my wife retired as a contract administrator. We would continue working until we died if we wanted to remain in such capacities. I for one, do not wish to continue in that life shortening grinder.

Does anyone believe that any organization that would undertake the task of managing the administration of our community would do this as a charitable gift to us? We live in paradise but we are not yet in heaven.

Before we contaminate the well from which we all draw our water leaving us to die (a metaphor for running off our only currently viable option) I strongly suggest that anyone wishing to be rid of the current administrators produce a detailed study and present a detailed plan on how the follow on administratino would be structured; where it would operate from (as Melo will not give us use of his property for free if at all); what it statement of work will be; how many employees; how many vehicles; what specific work will be performed in a 24/365 day cycle and what the total cost will be to us (those who pay and not some artificial number based on what it woudl cost if we collected every dime regularly and without he expense of collection).

We can then evaluate this idea and compare and contrast the new plan to what we have today. I will bet anyone a Balboa to a donut hole that we will not be able to contract for the same level of service for $35.00 per month or less. Any such study must also take into account what increases in cost would likely result in our water bills and in the use of the Club and other common use areas.

May I offer a simple idea: Do not rush to jump out of a perfectly sound aircraft without a parachute. The fall will not kill you (it may be an adrenaline rush), however, the sudden stop a the end will be less than pleasant.

Mark & Yari Ort
Casa 61
Torreon

Good morning. Well, I agree that:

1. No one wants to spend time in managing this neighborhood, and in the real life, any professional administration firm will charge us a considerable amount, maybe more than $35 because they should start almost from zero in infraestructure...

2. Another fact is that Vistamares, once out of their development role, should have a revenue by administering Cerro Azul, that is ok. However, I do not know if by now, they should have a revenue. If law permits so, then, they should simply put it clear in black and white and say so. End of one problem.

3. I agree that never in the life, 7,8 or 9 organizations will never function efficiently Cerro Azul, sharing a common entrance. The administration should be just ONE, Vistamares or any other ... pacar... whatever.

4. Detail finances is not a nice to have... it is a MUST...whenever you handle someone else's money. More when you pay, you know others don't pay, and your street is disaster... mine is a disaster, from always, they partially "arrange it", and the next months it was another disaster. SOCIAL AREAS are not precisely a GARDEN....so?

5. Morosity and the impossibility to COBRO JUDICIAL , is created because of not following the procedures as administrators throught the years. They are responsible either for getting the money from these propietors, or assuming them - VISTAMARES- the cost of their actions, or lack of actions. No matter in how many bolsa de valores they are registered in... if they cannot find the papers of the TORREON, what kind of administration are we talking about.

6. I agree that it is easier for all of us to continue with vistamares. If I want to continue with them?probably YES if they present the finances in order and work out the morosity. But it is not correct to say to us that they will "abandon us"... if they want to do so... perfect, but first they have to pay the morosity and clarifiying the numbers - money that in case of emergency could be use to build an office for the administration to come, if things get to that point.

but under any circunstances, this cannot continue like this. The current admninistration has to present clear numbers and reduce (or pay themselves) the morosity.

sorry for my english.

Buenos dias a todos, soy nueva en este tema de los foros me topé con éste buscando información sobre serpientes en Altos de Cerro Azul, no tenia idea de su existencia antes y me hubiera gustado mucho participar de la reunion del pasado 21 de abril.

Una de las cosas que me preocupa mas es el hecho de los morosos e incumplidos que no solo adeudan su tasa de matenimiento sino que tampoco limpian sus lotes perjudicando a los demas que si pagamos puntalmente por ambas obigaciones.

Contar con una buena junta directiva que supervise las actuaciones del Administrador es absolutamente necesario, la participacion de todos es aún más necesaria.

Nuestra inversión en Altos de Cerro Azul puede verse seriamente afectada si no tomamos accion inmediata. Nosotros aún no construímos porque nos preocupa que nuestros vecinos nunca limpian sus lotes y por mas que nos quejamos no logramos nada ya que ni siquiera están al dia en sus pagos de cuotas de mantenimiento. Solo de imaginar la pesadilla en que se convertiria nuestro sueño de una hermosa casa en nuestro pedacito de paraiso rodeada de monte, me aterra!

Debemos organizarnos y llamar a una asamblea de copropietarios prontamente.

Saludos

Franzela Llerena
Centinela 216

Buenos dias:
La verdad es que el aumento, es inconsulto y esta fuera de orden, como van a creer que Altos de Vistamares esta perdiendo dinero, si hacemos un calculo mensual de los 2000 terrenos y mas o menos 675 casas construidas, y entre todos ellos se pagara un promedio de 25.00 balboas mensuales esto cuanto da? Pero suponiendo que no todos pagan como bien lo sabemos y para ser bien austera solo pagaran 1300 terrenos incluyendo las casas, esto nos daria una suma de 32500 Baiboas por mes; multiplicado por 12 meses esto nos da un total de 390000, sin el aumento propuesto por la administracion!? Creen ustedes que la compañia que nos administra va a irse asi nada mas? Si con ese dinero deben arreglar calles, senderos, limpieza, y seguridad. Sera que no les alcanza es de pensar.
no creen ustedes que debemos poner un alto al aumento. y en lo personal mi esposo y yo no aprobamos ese aumento bajo ninguna escusa.
Atentamente
Sideneilton y Ana Maria Faria

I want to put in perspective the following issue regarding the fear that some owners have on Melo´s leaving Cerro Azul.
Melo owns 10,000 hectáreas (100,000,000 square meters) in Cerro Azul, thats equivalent to 24,711 acres. 8,000 are in the protected area of Chagres National Park and 2,000 are along the road coming up from the Ferise´s place at the lake. Our community of 750 hectáreas (1853 acres) is located inside of the 8,000 hectáreas (19,768 acres). This area is specified as an absolute protection area.

Melo owns 3 hydro plants that supplies electric power to his water & acueduct business and also to his chicken farms. He sells us the water and also to Panama´s water & acueduct system (the one located downstrean of the Cerro Azul´s road).

He has between 30-40 chicken farms in the area and also the largest egg providing factory in Panama.

Melo is working with the Panama Canal authorities & the United Nations to incorporate the remaining 7 thousand & plus square meters as a carbon reserve area, where he will be paid several millions per year just to conserve the area as a forest reserve.

A conservative value of Melo´s land in Cerro Azul, puts it at about at $150 million! We panamenians dont see Melo leaving the area at all. He has too much to loose!

The law obbliges the promotor of the project to turn over the project as soon as he finishes and that probably will happen when Melo sells the last 60-70 lots and houses left in his inventory. The promotor is just one of his companies under the mother company named Altos de Vistamares, S.A. The administration which is named Administradora los Altos de Cerro Azul, S.A. is another one, the water & acueduct is another, the Club is another, and so on.

Lets keep that in perspective that when Melo is saying that they may leave, he is reffering to one or two of his companies in the area!

Terani Simons
Altos del Frente No.89